Curse

rkubik · Jun 26, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raudic

Its true that Wars arent used in any meta builds really (team and farming wise). Warriors are my favorite class. I dont play in groups much, but running godmode with heroes discord spam is great.

This is true from my experience. Just got my War through Slavers and it took forever to find any groups so I had to H/H them. so after finally succeeding and opening the gate to Duncan I just paid for the run to be done with it rather than trying to find a group or henching it. It doesn't help I play at odd hours and it is generally tough for me to find groups to begin with. I have 9 other chars and don't have a problem finding groups except for my Para which I love to play and have flown through the campaigns with having to go solo.

Drizzitdude · Jul 19, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

I feel useless as a warriort too I just cant stand being one in any pvp. and PvE gets boring very fast especially if it isnt in the FoW or underworld. So I went to the darkside, thats right you heard me I went derv, and I never looked back at that sad pathetic shell rusting in charecter menu. (really a derv is just pure beast in a can.)

**Marty Silverblade** · Jul 19, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Dude, if you think Warriors are useless because of Dervishes, you're playing Warrior wrong.

Would tell you more than that but since all you'd said are how crap they are, I can't. Besides, Wars use scythes just as well, if not better than Dervs anyway.

Terrokian · Jul 20, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

I wanted to say something about the whole warrior versus Assassin thing first, and then comment on the topic.

Let's break down a typical axe warrior. 14 Axe Mastery 13 Strength Mastery. This is all versus a 100 armor level foe.

14 Axe Mastery means against a typical level 20 foe you get a 14% chance to critical (all characters get a 1% to critical per level with their chosen attack mastery).
13 Strength Mastery means you have 13% armor penetration.

Every single hit he makes WILL HAVE 13% armor penetration. That will result in a 28% increase in damage. (Standard non critical dps 13) X 28% = 17 (16.6) damage. This is your warrior just hitting and not using any attack skill. I will call this a normal hit.

Every 1 in 7 hits WILL BE critical. Coupled with your typical 13% armor penetration, that will result in a (Standard critical dps 30) x 28% = 38 (38.4) damage. I will call this a critical hit.

Now these 2 hits stated above are pure unbuffed by anything hits. EXCLUDING any blocking this is the damage for 7 hits.

#1=17 norm #5=17 norm
#2=17 norm #6=17 norm
#3=17 norm #7=38 crit
#4=17 norm total=140 damage

Let's break down a typical assassin. 14 Critical Strikes 13 Dagger Mastery. This is all versus a 100 armor level foe.

14 Critical Strikes means against a typical level 20 foe you roughly get a 14% chance to critical (typical chance) + 14% for this mastery, meaning 28% total. I MADE A MISTAKE HERE THE ACTUAL TOTAL WOULD BE 27% DUE TO DAGGER MASTERY ONLY ADDING 13% AND NOT 14%. ALL IN ALL THE 1% REALLY DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE OTHER THAN LOWERING THE ACTUAL DAMAGE AMOUNT INSIGNIFICANTLY
13 Dagger Mastery means you have a 26% chance to double strike.

Every single hit with a dagger (Standard non critical dps) = 12 damage. I will call this a normal hit.

Every 1 in 3 hits WILL BE critical (Standard critical dps) = 23 damage. I will call this a critical hit.

Every 1 in 4 hits WILL BE a double strike (Standard non critical dps x 2) = 24 damage. I will call this a double hit.

Now the odds of you getting a double strike + a critical strike OR a critical strike + a double strike are roughly 26% of a 28% chance OR 28% of a 26% chance, about 1 in 12ish, but seeing as the warrior only got 7 attacks, so to does the assassin. Furthermore I couldn't find any information on which percentage is checked first or second when figuring out the possibility of this. I will assume Critical Strikes is calculated first THEN Dagger Mastery. This means only 1 in 4 of the 1 in 3 hits will give you that combination.

#1=12 norm #5=12 norm
#2=12 norm #6=23 crit
#3=23 crit #7=12 norm
#4=24 dbl total=118

Warrior=140 Assassin=118

hmmmmmm

Makes you wonder what people are smoking when they tell you that an Assassin can out DPS a Warrior. No buffs, No IAS, just each character with a white weapon. The above math pretty much shows the whole story.You could say "Why didn't you use a sword instead of a spiky axe?" Because a sword and axe are the same over time. Axe = 13 dps normal Sword = 14 dps normal so the sword would outscore the axe by +6, but when you do the critical the axe = 30 the sword = 24, meaning the sword gets -6. Overall damage is not changed.

Regardless of flipping those weapons to anything you like (give both scythes) doesn't change the outcome. Normal DPS would be the same and Critical DPS would be the same for each character. The Assassin would score one more critical hit than the Warrior, but the Warrior is going to armor penetrate with EVERY SINGLE HIT. Furthermore the Assassin would lose it's double strike ability, and thus, actually lower it's overall damage. Whatever player that thinks they can take 1 or 2 criticals hits and outscore a constant armor penetration bonus of 28% damage is......well you go ahead and make that call.

Of course this is all physical damage to boot.Now I ask you, do you honestly believe a armor level 70 can hold a front line as well as an armor level 120? The Warrior gets 100 base +20 physical across the board. The Assassin gets +energy regeneration.

So how about enough of the Assassin players posting in the Warrior forums, about how this one time when they were in band camp, they out DPSed a Warrior.

But that whole rant there is a digression from the topic. Why have warriors become so useless? It's because of Minions. Simple enough really. A minion can die and turn into a poison bomb and damage everything in aggro. A minion can die and heal a whole party. A wall of minions can body block a bunch foes. You being 1 warrior can't do that. Who cares if a minion dies? The dead cost nothing. You being a warrior are needed alive. If you die then you need resurrected fast, because those squishys behind you will die shortly after you. You don't do so well with conditions or hexes. You cost energy to get them off you. And if you are not doing well, then you are not killing and blocking well. A minion needs to just stand there and block. No one really expects it to kill anything. Just hold it off long enough for their big AoE to wipe the foes out.

Why are Warriors considered useless? You are not cost effective in the scheme of things.

I still play my Warrior anyways. I just don't expect to have company when I do.

laksa and curry · Jul 20, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

I still love my warrior the most. Would disagree with TS on that. ^^

Teutonic Paladin · Jul 20, 2009, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Read strength again, I agree with your sentiment but your whole post is a load of shit because you don't know what your attributes do.

An Assassin with Splinter will roll a balled group faster than a warrior, but they aren't going to be able to maintain SY/KDs as well.

Forgotton200 · Jul 20, 2009, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

play my Warrior anyways. I just don't expect to have company when I do.

I love warriors as well. Too bad assassins can potentially out-dps us.

Jaigoda · Jul 20, 2009, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

/Snipping this for the page's sake

Lots and lots of fail. First, warrior strength only affects attack skills. Second, you just compared AUTOATTACK damage between axes and daggers. Everyone (well, what I thought to be everyone until now) knows that dagger autoattack damage is pathetic. The real power comes from hitting two +40's from dual attacks, namely Death Blossom. Last time I checked, warriors didn't have a +40 damage attack skill that hits twice... There is absolutely no disputing that assassins outdamage warriors, period. However, even I can't ignore the fact that warriors can more easily bring utility, such as 3sec KD's with +100AL to everyone, or AoE KD's. 'Sins can do KD's and +100AL, but the KD's are conditional (Club of a Thousand Bears needs MS to recharge it, so it only works <50%), and it's difficult to maintain SY without a 6sec duration. You guys just need to stop trying to argue that sins don't outdamage you (and by quite a bit too), because they do.

Also, you're extremely ignorant on armor. Warriors have 80 base AL, with 20 vs. physical, so an average of 90AL not including a shield (which you won't have if using ES, by the way). With shield, you have 106 armor. With armor insigs, you have 116 armor vs. all types. Assassins have 70AL, plus 25 from Critical Agility, so 95 AL. If you run Nightstalker Insignia, you have 110 armor. Obviously, that's hardly less than warrior, and it's actually more than a hammer warrior (which you warriors tout so damn much).

And minions didn't put warriors out of business, truckloads of damage given to all the other professions did. Warriors around the time of Factions and early Nightfall were able to fall into the position of being the main damage dealers, but now everything can just nuke stuff much faster. Minions have only replaced warriors as tanks. Warrior's damage dealing capabilities were lost due to the power creep.

Basically, much of GW has turned to a farming mindset now, and Warriors just don't fit into the optimal group, and so have been somewhat discarded from the PvE meta.

Terrokian · Jul 20, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

Read strength again, I agree with your sentiment but your whole post is a load of shit because you don't know what your attributes do.

An Assassin with Splinter will roll a balled group faster than a warrior, but they aren't going to be able to maintain SY/KDs as well.

Don't know my attributes huh?

Don't know how to cast Splinter on a warrior with triple chop/whirlwind/cyclone axe? The sweetness of watching that is you entire screen filling with yellow numbers. Save the don't know your attributes for yourself. And you can chain those attacks one right after the other. Remember, anyone can play the buff game, not just Assassins. So sitting here spouting off about what buffs do what is meaningless. Any buff that can be cast on an Assassin can be cast on a Warrior. And I'm dying to see the 3 Assassin AoE attacks in a row build. I'm sure others want to see it too.

Strength adds 1% of Armor penetration for each rank to attack skills that don't already have it.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Strength

That means 13 strength adds 13% AP to every attack EXCEPT for Penetrating Chop and Penetrating Blow (warrior). That means Penetrating Attack and Sundering Attack (ranger) don't get that. That means Sundering Weapon (ritualist) will not get it either. That means every flipping OTHER attack out there gets armor penetration EVERY time it is used. Period. 13% AP translates as 28% increase in damage dealt with EVERY attack except the above mentioned ones.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_Penetration

If 25% AP vs 100 AL = 54% increased damage
Then 13% AP vs 100 AL = 28% increased damage

Feel free to read the attribute yourself before you make opinions on what strength does or does not do.

As for Critical Hitting ability. This is a quote from Isaiah Cartwright.

"The base to the formula is basically 1% * Weapon skill for same level characters."

That is why I figured I would stick with the standard level 20 character with a typical 13-14 weapon skill level. Trying to adjust the actual formula and figure in all creatures from 15-31 level and possible points actually spent in weapon skills seemed a little stupid and lengthy.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Critical_hit

Your critical strikes at level 16 gives you 32% IF you have a level 16 dagger mastery. Technically that's a hair over 1 out of 3 attacks (1 out of 3.1). And it certainly isn't EVERY attack. Furthermore, IF you use any other weapon besides daggers, that 32% decreases to 28% (1 out of 3.5). You CANNOT get any other weapon beyond level 12. Also to get it even to 28% you will kiss 75 HP goodbye. To attain the 32% means 150 HP gone. Time to embrace the horror. 1 out of 3 attacks is not all you claim it to be when going up against armor penetration. The math isn't wrong. Assassins do not out DPS Warriors.

When people say they need a tank, they certainly are not asking for a Moebius Assassin. Their looking for the class that can get the job done. And most of the time they prefer Minion Masters if they can get them. But in low fleshy areas they want a WARRIOR.

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

remove shadow form = no more sins in groups. its not cause sins do more damage :P

kane zarthrox · Jul 20, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Terrokian knows his stuff. Provide a detailed example like him if your going to argue an assassin point. Oh wait...he already did for you. Warrior ftw

.

Jaigoda · Jul 20, 2009, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

blah blah blah, strength, ALL ATTACKS, blah blah blah

All attack SKILLS, dude. So unless every attack is an attack skill (such as for Dragon Slash, but that's only single-target damage anyway), your point is moot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

crap on criticals

You keep missing a HUGELY important part of this whole thing: SKILLS!! Way of the Master means you're getting at least 1 crit every other hit, if not more. And then of course since you're not using your elite for energy management unlike warriors, you can bring an extremely spammable deep wound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

When people say they need a tank, they certainly are not asking for a Moebius Assassin. Their looking for the class that can get the job done. And most of the time they prefer Minion Masters if they can get them. But in low fleshy areas they want a WARRIOR.

When people say they need a tank (outside of a very small few areas), you should laugh at them and tell them to stop living in '05. Tanking in general PvE is and has been dead for a long time now. When people are asking for damage, which is ACTUALLY useful for general PvE, warriors definitely won't be their first pick. They'll be looking for a class that actually does considerable damage, such as an assassin.

And the fact that the role you're trying to say the warrior plays, is completely outclassed by a caster (MM), then you should be able to understand why your argument is so terrible.

If you want damage, take an Assassin or caster.
If you want tanking, take an Assassin or caster.
If you want farmability, take an Assassin.
If you want to run places, take an Assassin or Dervish or anyone with 4 pips or regen.
If you want support/utility, bring a Locust's Fury Assassin or Imbagon.

Lishy · Jul 20, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

remove shadow form = no more sins in groups. its not cause sins do more damage :P

He makes a good point. Nobody would give a damn about sins without SF. And I'm a longtime sin player, so I should know.

Oh, and just while on the topic, sins don't outclass a warrior. It's like comparing apples and oranges. They both use different weapons. And criticals are not guaranteed, whereas strength is when using attack skills, and has a huge impact on high-armor enemies.
Both are great options. But when you get right down to it, it's all about play style.

Arkantos · Jul 20, 2009, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

PUGs wouldn't give a damn about sins without SF, although any decent guild who doesn't run pure gimmicks would know they're not as useless as everyone says. And I'm a longtime sin player, so I should know.

Fixed for you.

Anyone who says sins are useless obviously have never had a MS/DB sin in their group.

Lishy · Jul 20, 2009, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Anyone who says sins are useless obviously have never had a MS/DB sin in their group.

I suppose that "anyone" is the people without sins at the time?
Keep in mind PvE skills were JUST introduced, so people weren't aware of an assassin's potential and didn't even bother to check their builds, let alone accept them. This was back then, when the only build on guild wiki was the golden phoenix moebius build.

Even guilds were skeptical and always asked for a Warrior or Dervish instead. If not, damn it, I want to know what the hell kind of guild you were in.

Terrokian · Jul 20, 2009, 07:24 AM // 07:24

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_skills

So you can refresh your memory on what attack skills are and are not. and as you stated it applies to the auto attacks too. Seems to me you are stating that if it doesn't specifically call it self an attack skill it isn't one. Yet everyone else understands the ENTIRE TREES listed there are considered attack skills where strength is concerned. Unless the skill states that it is not an attack it gets the AP. This means that melee attacks also get it as they are a sub tree of attack skills.

Assassins get back to back +40 damage hits and that ends things? It is a nice thing to have a Dual Attack and it does hit for what you say. So how come Triple Chop + Whirlwind +Cyclone Axe got dismissed so easily? Let's examine this in fairness.

All Skills will be with a 14 axe and 13 strength or 14 critical 13 dagger.

Triple Chop gets (39 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) ) + (56 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 71.68

hmmmm didn't have to hit twice to get that

Death Blossom gets (42 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 64 + 42 (A dual attack will always double strike and the listed skill effect is applied twice, once for each strike. In this case the listed skill effect is 42 damage) = 106

Well the assassin certainly wins on that one hit, but thing is, I can walk up and Triple Chop a foe. The assassin must do 2 other attacks in order to get Death Blossom charged. So seeing as we are using the standard AoE axe warrior let's use the standard Death Blossom/Moebius assassin. AoE vs AoE.

Golden Fox Strike gets (27 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 39

Fox Fangs gets (27 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 39

Total 39 + 39 + 106 = 184 damage

For sake of argument let's also say the assassin got a critical on that death blossom and adjust things accordingly. Critical hit = max weapon damage x 1.4

42 + (17 x 1.4 = 23.8) = 65.8 + 42 = 107.8 + 39 + 39 = 185.8

Now let's give the warrior 2 attacks also to add to the Triple Chop.However the warrior will not score a critical.

Whirlwind Attack (19 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam)) x (36 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 46.08

Cyclone Axe (11 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam)) x (28 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 35.84

71.68 + 46.08 + 35.94 = 153.6

If you grant the warrior a critical on his Triple Chop you get

(39 (skill) + (28 x 1.4) ) + (78.2 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 100.09

100.09 + 46.08 + 35.94 = 182.11

So compared we got 153.6 (warrior) vs 184 (assassin) a difference of 30.4 and 182.11 (warrior) vs 185.8 (assassin) a difference of 3.69 it is more damage, but the warrior, as you stated packs some sweet utilities.

With what we just did there, the assassin is SPENT. Why is it spent? You got critical agility (melee with no IAS? armor goes back to being squishy?), critical eye (your burning through energy and must have the management), moebius (standing there swinging with plain daggers? you need recharge NOW), critical defense (once again like it or not you are squishy) and usually a hard rez for party members. You could add some conditions to your attacks or self healing, but energy may be a problem in a fight. But seriously you are limited and you certainly won't be adding any more damage to what you have done. You are pretty much maxed out. And as you mentioned when speaking of armor you do need skills to boost it.

The 5 skills I could take, well that would be Signet of Strength +5 damage per attack for 14 attacks. I am the Strongest +20 damage per attack for 8 attacks. What's sweet about those 2 is I can cast them way ahead of battle and recharge my energy (total cost is 5 energy), they have no time limit. For Great Justice cause I need adrenaline to spam whirlwind. Flail for that IAS. Like you not sure what the last one could be. Hard rez, self heal, anti KD, SY, etc etc.

Well here's where the difference comes in. I just added 25 damage to each of those attacks above and your skill bar added nothing to yours. So I wonder how it looks now? I won't do a critical on any of this.

Triple Chop gets (39 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) + (81 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 103.68

still didn't need a dual attack to get that

Whirlwind Attack (19 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) + (61 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 78.08

Cyclone Axe (11 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) x (28 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 67.84

total 103.68 + 78.08 + 67.84 = 249.6

And just to make you feel better I probably wouldn't use Signet of Strength so we can subtract the 15 points + 4.2 extra from ap. Let's say 20 making it 229.6 that way I have 2 slots to consider for all the other stuff hard rez, self heal, anti KD, SY, etc etc.

229.6 non critical vs your 185.8 that is a critical. Yet you sit here and want me to believe that you easily out damage a warrior. The only viable melee assassin build is the Moebius Hybrid. It is very limited. The warrior however is not. And as you can see, assassins don't get any where near out damaging a warrior.

Tyla · Jul 20, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

Snip

Nice to see you haven't improved. By now you'd be expected to at least know the Strength mechanic.

I wouldn't call a Warrior "useless", as they still have the option of Dragon Slash - Whirlwind Attack (which may or may not boost your adrenaline to Dragon Slash to generate a chain, depending on how many enemies you hit), which unlike Death Blossom can boost the damage of each "hit" through things such as Strength and Honour. Personally, I feel the two are quite comparable in damage although the fact that if you're running Golden Phoenix, there may be times when you can't start your combination again. That is assuming you don't have Brawling Headbutt and Falling Lotus Strike to compliment it.

M @ T · Jul 20, 2009, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Generally I would agree that Warriors>Assasins, but the person who started this thread needs help on his/her Warrior. I don't think he/she cares about the whole discussion on whether a Warrior or a Sin is better and why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever Darkeyes

What the heck happen too warriors? I feel like im so unwanted in groups/speedruns etc. Yea so i havent play in quite a long time but i made a come back recently and now its all about the fotm(assassin) I dont like making new chars i always try too fulfill one, so stoping my warrior is out of the picture.

Im not too sure what too do here maybe get into a huge guild and hope someone will take me on some speed runs and such...I dunno tho this is really more of a rant then anything, stuck on how too make my warrior more fun?

And as for farming....lol? What can we do? Smites/raptors gg how fail is that.

Mind the bold plox.

kane zarthrox · Jul 20, 2009, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_skills

So you can refresh your memory on what attack skills are and are not. and as you stated it applies to the auto attacks too. Seems to me you are stating that if it doesn't specifically call it self an attack skill it isn't one. Yet everyone else understands the ENTIRE TREES listed there are considered attack skills where strength is concerned. Unless the skill states that it is not an attack it gets the AP. This means that melee attacks also get it as they are a sub tree of attack skills.

Assassins get back to back +40 damage hits and that ends things? It is a nice thing to have a Dual Attack and it does hit for what you say. So how come Triple Chop + Whirlwind +Cyclone Axe got dismissed so easily? Let's examine this in fairness.

All Skills will be with a 14 axe and 13 strength or 14 critical 13 dagger.

Triple Chop gets (39 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) ) + (56 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 71.68

hmmmm didn't have to hit twice to get that

Death Blossom gets (42 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 64 + 42 (A dual attack will always double strike and the listed skill effect is applied twice, once for each strike. In this case the listed skill effect is 42 damage) = 106

Well the assassin certainly wins on that one hit, but thing is, I can walk up and Triple Chop a foe. The assassin must do 2 other attacks in order to get Death Blossom charged. So seeing as we are using the standard AoE axe warrior let's use the standard Death Blossom/Moebius assassin. AoE vs AoE.

Golden Fox Strike gets (27 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 39

Fox Fangs gets (27 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 39

Total 39 + 39 + 106 = 184 damage

For sake of argument let's also say the assassin got a critical on that death blossom and adjust things accordingly. Critical hit = max weapon damage x 1.4

42 + (17 x 1.4 = 23.8) = 65.8 + 42 = 107.8 + 39 + 39 = 185.8

Now let's give the warrior 2 attacks also to add to the Triple Chop.However the warrior will not score a critical.

Whirlwind Attack (19 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam)) x (36 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 46.08

Cyclone Axe (11 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam)) x (28 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 35.84

71.68 + 46.08 + 35.94 = 153.6

If you grant the warrior a critical on his Triple Chop you get

(39 (skill) + (28 x 1.4) ) + (78.2 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 100.09

100.09 + 46.08 + 35.94 = 182.11

So compared we got 153.6 (warrior) vs 184 (assassin) a difference of 30.4 and 182.11 (warrior) vs 185.8 (assassin) a difference of 3.69 it is more damage, but the warrior, as you stated packs some sweet utilities.

With what we just did there, the assassin is SPENT. Why is it spent? You got critical agility (melee with no IAS? armor goes back to being squishy?), critical eye (your burning through energy and must have the management), moebius (standing there swinging with plain daggers? you need recharge NOW), critical defense (once again like it or not you are squishy) and usually a hard rez for party members. You could add some conditions to your attacks or self healing, but energy may be a problem in a fight. But seriously you are limited and you certainly won't be adding any more damage to what you have done. You are pretty much maxed out. And as you mentioned when speaking of armor you do need skills to boost it.

The 5 skills I could take, well that would be Signet of Strength +5 damage per attack for 14 attacks. I am the Strongest +20 damage per attack for 8 attacks. What's sweet about those 2 is I can cast them way ahead of battle and recharge my energy (total cost is 5 energy), they have no time limit. For Great Justice cause I need adrenaline to spam whirlwind. Flail for that IAS. Like you not sure what the last one could be. Hard rez, self heal, anti KD, SY, etc etc.

Well here's where the difference comes in. I just added 25 damage to each of those attacks above and your skill bar added nothing to yours. So I wonder how it looks now? I won't do a critical on any of this.

Triple Chop gets (39 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) + (81 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 103.68

still didn't need a dual attack to get that

Whirlwind Attack (19 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) + (61 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 78.08

Cyclone Axe (11 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) x (28 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 67.84

total 103.68 + 78.08 + 67.84 = 249.6

And just to make you feel better I probably wouldn't use Signet of Strength so we can subtract the 15 points + 4.2 extra from ap. Let's say 20 making it 229.6 that way I have 2 slots to consider for all the other stuff hard rez, self heal, anti KD, SY, etc etc.

229.6 non critical vs your 185.8 that is a critical. Yet you sit here and want me to believe that you easily out damage a warrior. The only viable melee assassin build is the Moebius Hybrid. It is very limited. The warrior however is not. And as you can see, assassins don't get any where near out damaging a warrior.

Nice argument. I again stand by my statement beforehand, This guy is a beast.

Forgotton200 · Jul 20, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Generally I would agree that Warriors>Assasins

Objection. There is clearly a contradiction in the witness' testimony.

See:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever Darkeyes

What the heck happen too warriors? I feel like im so unwanted in groups/speedruns etc. Yea so i havent play in quite a long time but i made a come back recently and now its all about the fotm(assassin) I dont like making new chars i always try too fulfill one, so stoping my warrior is out of the picture.

Im not too sure what too do here maybe get into a huge guild and hope someone will take me on some speed runs and such...I dunno tho this is really more of a rant then anything, stuck on how too make my warrior more fun?

And as for farming....lol? What can we do? Smites/raptors gg how fail is that.

Also,

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

remove shadow form = no more sins in groups. its not cause sins do more damage :P

This is one of the primary reason why (along with "easy mode please") assassins becomes overly defensive when shadow form nerf is suggested. We have many people trying to convince that assassins are inferior in all field except farming and becomes deluded. We also have the one who has never been in the assassin's perspective ever. Asinine troglodytes assumes assassins will no longer have any spot left in PvE due to the successful manipulation. I, too, tried to manipulate, resorting to strawman, the idea to present an easily defeated misrepresentation of the opponent's argument and then pwn it in a display of wholly imagined 1337 debate skills. Why? Because I hate assassins. Period. However, they are excellent damage dealer no doubt. Crit-scythe and DB/MS will always be prevalent in the PvE meta as the top physical damage dealer even if the aforementioned skill is nerfed so I hope you assassins don't bring up this issue and as defense in the future.

But I agree with M @ T, we're going off-topic. OP wants speed runs/farmings, not a comparison of assassin and warrior dps. We have enough of those threads, usually all locked because flaming and comparisons comes in a set (Yes I know I was the one throwing the insults and personal attacks to the assassins but I'm a pretty cool guy now). Anet is keeping an eye on the speed clear so we may soon get our glory back. Maybe not, it's Anet after all. Get your warrior and find someone decent and run: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_FoW_Manly_Spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

Don't know my attributes huh?

Don't know how to cast Splinter on a warrior with triple chop/whirlwind/cyclone axe? The sweetness of watching that is you entire screen filling with yellow numbers. Save the don't know your attributes for yourself. And you can chain those attacks one right after the other. Remember, anyone can play the buff game, not just Assassins. So sitting here spouting off about what buffs do what is meaningless. Any buff that can be cast on an Assassin can be cast on a Warrior. And I'm dying to see the 3 Assassin AoE attacks in a row build. I'm sure others want to see it too.

Strength adds 1% of Armor penetration for each rank to attack skills that don't already have it.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Strength

That means 13 strength adds 13% AP to every attack EXCEPT for Penetrating Chop and Penetrating Blow (warrior). That means Penetrating Attack and Sundering Attack (ranger) don't get that. That means Sundering Weapon (ritualist) will not get it either. That means every flipping OTHER attack out there gets armor penetration EVERY time it is used. Period. 13% AP translates as 28% increase in damage dealt with EVERY attack except the above mentioned ones.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_Penetration

If 25% AP vs 100 AL = 54% increased damage
Then 13% AP vs 100 AL = 28% increased damage

Feel free to read the attribute yourself before you make opinions on what strength does or does not do.

As for Critical Hitting ability. This is a quote from Isaiah Cartwright.

"The base to the formula is basically 1% * Weapon skill for same level characters."

That is why I figured I would stick with the standard level 20 character with a typical 13-14 weapon skill level. Trying to adjust the actual formula and figure in all creatures from 15-31 level and possible points actually spent in weapon skills seemed a little stupid and lengthy.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Critical_hit

Your critical strikes at level 16 gives you 32% IF you have a level 16 dagger mastery. Technically that's a hair over 1 out of 3 attacks (1 out of 3.1). And it certainly isn't EVERY attack. Furthermore, IF you use any other weapon besides daggers, that 32% decreases to 28% (1 out of 3.5). You CANNOT get any other weapon beyond level 12. Also to get it even to 28% you will kiss 75 HP goodbye. To attain the 32% means 150 HP gone. Time to embrace the horror. 1 out of 3 attacks is not all you claim it to be when going up against armor penetration. The math isn't wrong. Assassins do not out DPS Warriors.

When people say they need a tank, they certainly are not asking for a Moebius Assassin. Their looking for the class that can get the job done. And most of the time they prefer Minion Masters if they can get them. But in low fleshy areas they want a WARRIOR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrokian

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_skills

So you can refresh your memory on what attack skills are and are not. and as you stated it applies to the auto attacks too. Seems to me you are stating that if it doesn't specifically call it self an attack skill it isn't one. Yet everyone else understands the ENTIRE TREES listed there are considered attack skills where strength is concerned. Unless the skill states that it is not an attack it gets the AP. This means that melee attacks also get it as they are a sub tree of attack skills.

Assassins get back to back +40 damage hits and that ends things? It is a nice thing to have a Dual Attack and it does hit for what you say. So how come Triple Chop + Whirlwind +Cyclone Axe got dismissed so easily? Let's examine this in fairness.

All Skills will be with a 14 axe and 13 strength or 14 critical 13 dagger.

Triple Chop gets (39 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) ) + (56 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 71.68

hmmmm didn't have to hit twice to get that

Death Blossom gets (42 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 64 + 42 (A dual attack will always double strike and the listed skill effect is applied twice, once for each strike. In this case the listed skill effect is 42 damage) = 106

Well the assassin certainly wins on that one hit, but thing is, I can walk up and Triple Chop a foe. The assassin must do 2 other attacks in order to get Death Blossom charged. So seeing as we are using the standard AoE axe warrior let's use the standard Death Blossom/Moebius assassin. AoE vs AoE.

Golden Fox Strike gets (27 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 39

Fox Fangs gets (27 (skill) + 12 (7+17=24/2=12avg dam) = 39

Total 39 + 39 + 106 = 184 damage

For sake of argument let's also say the assassin got a critical on that death blossom and adjust things accordingly. Critical hit = max weapon damage x 1.4

42 + (17 x 1.4 = 23.8) = 65.8 + 42 = 107.8 + 39 + 39 = 185.8

Now let's give the warrior 2 attacks also to add to the Triple Chop.However the warrior will not score a critical.

Whirlwind Attack (19 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam)) x (36 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 46.08

Cyclone Axe (11 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam)) x (28 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 35.84

71.68 + 46.08 + 35.94 = 153.6

If you grant the warrior a critical on his Triple Chop you get

(39 (skill) + (28 x 1.4) ) + (78.2 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 100.09

100.09 + 46.08 + 35.94 = 182.11

So compared we got 153.6 (warrior) vs 184 (assassin) a difference of 30.4 and 182.11 (warrior) vs 185.8 (assassin) a difference of 3.69 it is more damage, but the warrior, as you stated packs some sweet utilities.

With what we just did there, the assassin is SPENT. Why is it spent? You got critical agility (melee with no IAS? armor goes back to being squishy?), critical eye (your burning through energy and must have the management), moebius (standing there swinging with plain daggers? you need recharge NOW), critical defense (once again like it or not you are squishy) and usually a hard rez for party members. You could add some conditions to your attacks or self healing, but energy may be a problem in a fight. But seriously you are limited and you certainly won't be adding any more damage to what you have done. You are pretty much maxed out. And as you mentioned when speaking of armor you do need skills to boost it.

The 5 skills I could take, well that would be Signet of Strength +5 damage per attack for 14 attacks. I am the Strongest +20 damage per attack for 8 attacks. What's sweet about those 2 is I can cast them way ahead of battle and recharge my energy (total cost is 5 energy), they have no time limit. For Great Justice cause I need adrenaline to spam whirlwind. Flail for that IAS. Like you not sure what the last one could be. Hard rez, self heal, anti KD, SY, etc etc.

Well here's where the difference comes in. I just added 25 damage to each of those attacks above and your skill bar added nothing to yours. So I wonder how it looks now? I won't do a critical on any of this.

Triple Chop gets (39 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) + (81 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 103.68

still didn't need a dual attack to get that

Whirlwind Attack (19 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) + (61 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 78.08

Cyclone Axe (11 (skill) + 17 (6+28=34/2=avg dam) +25) x (28 (amount of total dam) x .28 (dam increase from ap) = 67.84

total 103.68 + 78.08 + 67.84 = 249.6

And just to make you feel better I probably wouldn't use Signet of Strength so we can subtract the 15 points + 4.2 extra from ap. Let's say 20 making it 229.6 that way I have 2 slots to consider for all the other stuff hard rez, self heal, anti KD, SY, etc etc.

229.6 non critical vs your 185.8 that is a critical. Yet you sit here and want me to believe that you easily out damage a warrior. The only viable melee assassin build is the Moebius Hybrid. It is very limited. The warrior however is not. And as you can see, assassins don't get any where near out damaging a warrior.